Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect

[mysticalchild_isis]

Further Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny

You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.

What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.

Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.

Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?

There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.

But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?

Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?

Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?

But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.

Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?

You're very welcome to share this/link to it.

Comments

[madelynnm.livejournal.com]

I haven't read through your OP yet, butttttt I gotta ask, were you the F!S person from yesterday that posted about the misogyny?! :D

[mysticalchild_isis]

Nope- as a rule, I mostly avoid Fandom Secrets. What was the post about?

[madelynnm.livejournal.com]

[mysticalchild_isis]

I certainly can see where they are coming from, but I think that's a little harsh (and ageist). For one thing, some of the people in their 40s and 50s grew up with a lot more sexism than many of the twentysomethings.

It's also a little hypocritical, because it's mostly women in those groups... and this secret seems rather vitriolic towards them. I don't approve of hate groups, but it's not my place to dictate what comms people can join.

[madelynnm.livejournal.com]

Okay and now that I've read it in depth (the Tony part, especially!)

I gotta say I'm with you 100%, though I don't think Tony's quite the womanizer he was before. But I find the double standard with him versus Ziva in fandom (and only here) utterly ridiculous.

It's no secret that she is my favorite character, but I can see the flaws in her personality as well. But my point is that I've read countless posts about people attacking her because she is exactly what you said about Tony: rude, dismissive and a bully. And Michael Weatherly's "she's a sociopath" comment really makes me wonder if he sees who his own character actually is, which ftr, really seems to come off a lot more serious on paper than how he actually said it.

Since there are so few women in this fandom, it's hard to pinpoint another double standard. We don't see enough of Abby's character to really make any conclusions about that but I've found that the harshest critics of the females in the show and the ones who idolize Tony DiNozzo (and Michael Weatherly) and worship the ground he walks on also tend to be the Gibbs/DiNozzo slashers. Not to say that their preference of character shipping necessarly correlates to the topic but at the same time, I've met only a few folks who ship Gibbs/DiNozzo that don't show complete and utter hatred to the female characters (other than Abby.) I'm not looking to start a war here, as it's not just them, but the blind following of DiNozzo love makes me wonder just what a lot of NCIS fans are smoking and where I can get it.

And the saddest part about this all? I've come to dislike his character a lot because of the fans. Much like I'm sure that the rabid TIVA-fans/Ziva fans are to blame for some folks dislike of her.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I almost added the scenario of Tony being a woman in world with a male Ziva, but my post was beginning to get too long and too complicated.

It's unfortunate that so much hate comes from 'shipping. The women who threaten or break up ships are the ones who get he most hate.

[madelynnm.livejournal.com]

Well that's what I don't get when it comes to that specific pairing (which I feel like I need to preface this with a disclaimer that says: does not apply to all)

They're not canon, which so often gets thrown in TIVA fans faces, but nearly any ship in NCIS fandom isn't canon. So there's really no issue of her getting in between, since as it's been shown, the men are completely straight, nor are they together. So there's really nothing to get in between or break up.

Though, people who ship Gibbs/Ducky, McGee/Tony seem to be a lot less concerned and worried about any female character coming in between. But I'm not trying to turn this into a ship-war so I should shut up haha

[mysticalchild_isis]

It seems that for some shippers, the simple fact that other fans ship half of their OTP with someone else seems threatening.

[eyra.livejournal.com]

I've met only a few folks who ship Gibbs/DiNozzo that don't show complete and utter hatred to the female characters (other than Abby.)

This really depresses me. I just...thought I'd stand up and be counted, since there are apparently so few of us. I am someone who ships Gibbs/Dinozzo (though not exclusively, and not particularly rabidly), but who also really really loves Ziva, and I really liked Kate (I might have loved her, except that I watched the first two seasons after having watched Kill Ari, so I tried really hard not to get too attached. Not that it worked out all that well; I still cried when I got to Kill Ari again). I also think I'm one of the few people who really liked Jen. I found her interesting and likable, and the ambivalence that entered her characterization when it became obvious that she was basically using a federal agency for a personal vendetta didn't make me hate her, it made me like her more.

But Ziva's my favorite. The reason I don't want Tiva is because I think she deserves better. But I would be all over Tony/Ziva if it were, you know...written differently. If I didn't feel like Ziva became somehow lessened when the show were trying to throw them together*, because yeah, Tony can be a dick, but she doesn't have to put up with it. She doesn't put up with his crap when the subtext isn't romantic.

*I winced when I wrote that. I mean, women should be allowed to be vulnerable without becoming "less," you know? But that's how it feels to me, though I can't tell if that's the show's problem (actually lessening her) or mine (interpreting romantic subplots as lessening, which is something I hate when other people do). But I kept it in there because I felt like, even if it is my problem it has to be the show's, too, to some degree. I mean, extra-textually, look at the way Ziva reacted to Jeanne (with pining for Tony) versus the way Tony reacted to Michael (with suspicions, and he turned out to be right).

[madelynnm.livejournal.com]

All I can say is, I think I love you.


I like the idea of Tony/Ziva *in theory* as I've pointed out. But logically, I can't make sense of it. I wouldn't mind seeing it on the show but I'd also rather not because I like my Tony better as well.

[madelynnm.livejournal.com]

and I hope I didn't come off rude, even though I made a relatively large assumption about a faction of shippers, but I think you got my point?

[eyra.livejournal.com]

Oh, not rude at all! It was depressing, and I hadn't ever thought of it that way before, but it wasn't actually surprising, either. I mean, there's a lot of Gibbs/Dinozzo love and a lot of Ziva hate, and I'd never really thought before about the fact that this means there's probably crossover there.

I think I actually would mind seeing Tony/Ziva on the show, just because I think they'd butcher my love for the idea of it. With you, I'm a lot more fond of the Tony in my head than the one I see on the show.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Your Ziva paragraph: THIS. And the thing is, yes, she can become vulnerable, but the way the writers are going about it is to... do so in an entirely obnoxious way: making her just another emotional woman who loses all her arguments with Tony.

It's not something I blame on Ziva, it's the writers (they're very uneven in their treatment of characters).

And I'm also one of the people who loved Jenny.

[lydia-petze.livejournal.com]

And the saddest part about this all? I've come to dislike his character a lot because of the fans

That's happened to me a lot. It's gotten to where I start to see the signs now and rather than grow to hate a character I used to love, I withdraw from the fandom (sometimes temporarily, sometimes not).