Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect

[mysticalchild_isis]

Further Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny

You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.

What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.

Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.

Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?

There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.

But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?

Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?

Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?

But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.

Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?

You're very welcome to share this/link to it.

Comments

[nothingbutgold.livejournal.com]

the thread being referenced in the comment above mine is here (http://isiscaughey.livejournal.com/665134.html?thread=3509038#t3509038), if you're interested

but i think part of the reason why we as a society are not fans of ostensible "overbearing bitchy women" is because we're not fans of women, and we think of women as being either like that or overly weak / passive.

[vikingwriter.livejournal.com]

I'm not a sociologist or psychologist, so I can't really speak for society at large. But I can speak for myself, and having worked with many, let's call them 'women who try too hard,' and weak and passive ones, I have little patience with both general personality types. And unfortunately, they make up so many women. And I get it, I do. It's a tough place we find ourselves in these days, expectations pinning us between extremes. But I have to believe there's a way to get power, respect, be an example, without using the 'female' traits/tools (emotion, tears, sex, etc. that we are accused of) OR having to be the most Male of Men (overbearing, my way or the highway, anyone beneath me who has an original idea is trying to take my job, and so forth). Because while people can be both sets of traits, they don't have to be one or the other, or either. And so I hold MYSELF to a higher standard. And maybe I should hold everyone to that as well, but it's exhausting, frankly. So I just hope I don't recreate my horrible situations for other women and that when the time comes, I can help my sister through the same mine field.

[/possibly over-sensitive reaction]

[nothingbutgold.livejournal.com]

i'm not trying to say that there are no women with distasteful qualities, just that when men have these same qualities, they'll often be applauded / respected in spite of or sometimes even for them. i don't think it is your personal fault that you don't like "overbearing bitchy women," but you DO seem to like the same personality type only in men ("There are lots of characters I like who, for lack of a better word, are jerks."), and the larger point about this is that [royal] we judge women more harshly than men. i don't expect you or anyone else to change your personal preferences about the types of characters / people you find compelling, and i don't think the intention of the post was to say that we must (though it does recommend that we not bash them, and i'd consider using "bitchy" as a description of someone's personality type, especially a woman's, to be a form of "spend[ing] ... time disparaging and despising women," since it is an undeniably gendered criticism), but this disparity is still worth examining.

and maybe i'm being naïve, but i don't feel like it's an especially widespread problem that women are using their feminine wayz to manipulate and abuse men, which is what the line about using "female traits / tools" like sex seems to be saying. and i don't necessarily think women "trying to act like men" in order to be successful is a problem, as long as they're not putting down other women in the process, because the traits we as a society admire and reward are gendered as male. so it's not inherently like, dishonest or traitorous or fake for women to adopt these traits, though it should be the case that positive qualities are all gendered as masculine. unless the forms of "acting male" that you're talking about are going around calling women sluts or something like that, which i'd certainly feel free to condemn.

i'm not pissed off or anything, so feel free to keep talking to me about this if you're in the mood! i'm interested now.

[vikingwriter.livejournal.com]

Okay, one last go before I *finally* get some sleep...

I don't typically use the word 'bitch,' because I find it rather...vague...if that makes sense? But in this case, it seems to encompass the traditionally negatively female traits; a shorthand that most of us understand in the same way.

My 'jerk' characters *were* mostly male, and that's really a fault of my memory/brain at the moment. I'm sure I'll come up with more female ones in the next day or so. (I also feel the need to note that I do like non-jerks as well, but I think that's maybe another thread? Or not, let me know.)

*I* don't see women using sex, except in fiction and film. But I see the perception 'out there,' sort of like the myth of Welfare Mothers who constantly cheat the system and pop babies out like they're golden Willy Wonka tickets. It's reality in that it's what people use to inform their perceptions, but not in the sense that it's a common occurance. (Feel free to ignore that sentence if it makes no sense.)

What I think is kind of funny/interesting about this is that I'm actually pretty hard on men. I believe it was one of the comments where someone used Tony DiNozzo's 'The Wife Did It' theory as an example of his misogyny. When I'm watching/reading something (as well as in real life), when a woman goes missing/turns up dead, I always assume it's the male partner. When a woman sleeps with a guy, I always assume it will end badly because he'll do something asshole-ish (cheating, lying, and the like). When a guy who's ever been the asshole *doesn't* act like an misogynist jerk to a woman, I assume he wants something from her.

Again, personal/real life baggage meets desire for dynamic, evolving characters. Which leaves my tastes seeming/being a bit...uneven?

So, yeah, I think I actually had something to say, but [lack of] sleep has gotten in the way. Feel free to ruminate, comment, not comment, whatever...

[nothingbutgold.livejournal.com]

OT thought: ruminate and urinate are really similar looking. like, one could easily mistake the first word for the second just by glancing

anyway

yeah, i just couldn't tell that you thinking of those things as myths. i'm sort of confused about the points where we were differing now, so i don't have all that much more to say! goodnight :D