Isis/Sarah/Bowie (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
mysticalchild_isis) wrote2010-03-25 03:24 pm
mysticalchild_isis) wrote2010-03-25 03:24 pm
Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect
Further Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny
You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.
What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.
Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.
Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?
There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.
But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?
Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?
Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?
But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.
Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.
Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?
You're very welcome to share this/link to it.
You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.
What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.
Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.
Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?
There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.
But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?
Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?
Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?
But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.
Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.
Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?
You're very welcome to share this/link to it.
no subject
Also there is no Tosh hate, literally none. Now this is a woman who is in love with a man who doesn't notice her, and who does he have an affair with? Gwen. Who is living with her boyfriend. I think if you take everything else away, those two things are enough to upset women, who relate to Tosh. I relate to Tosh, she is the nerdy woman who feels unnoticed by men.
So yeah, I guess I'm saying that thinking about it, there is something there about the women who we all found difficult to cope with when they were the popular girl in school, and then they are on our screen. Hence Rose hate as well.
I did love Dr Polaski though!
no subject
I can certainly see why the Prom Queen characters might be hard to like/identify with, but it sort of bothers me that that is a reason why people don't like female characters... but that Prom King types get a pass. It's another case of being far harsher on the women than the men. (I also, quite honestly, have trouble seeing Rose as the Prom Queen type.)
no subject
I don't think that the Ianto haters are as widespread as the Gwen bashing, although of course I haven't exactly studied it, and I'm only really talking about Lj, of course there are other forums. I think the nature of it though is really very nasty, but yeah, I haven't read a huge amount of either. Still like I said, I think there may well be an exception to your rule there, and I don't know if it's related to sexuality, but I suspect so.
I think maybe it's that as women so many fans weren't prom queens. Like I said, lack of Tosh hate, and I'm sure geeky women in other fandoms don't get the hate either. I can't think of a good example there, maybe Donna in Dr Who? Of course most of us weren't prom queens, there can only ever be one after all, but it's the male writers and producers who are often obsessed with those type of women, and put them front and centre in their shows. So the same old things play out, and we resent the characters for reminding us.
Unfortunately most fans can't see what you have pointed out, or have the insight into what is happening. Or maybe just don't care I guess. I don't see the problem with not liking any character, but I do hate it when it gets nasty or vitriolic, and sometimes seems rather unhealthy.
no subject
I don't see the problem with not liking any character
Very much agreed. Every single character out there is going to be disliked by someone, and that's only natural. I am not a fan of bashing, however, especially because female characters tend to get the brunt of it.