Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect

[mysticalchild_isis]

Further Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny

You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.

What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.

Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.

Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?

There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.

But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?

Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?

Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?

But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.

Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?

You're very welcome to share this/link to it.

Comments

[liebesdammerung.livejournal.com]

Hi, from metafandom!

This is exactly how I feel about Dean from Supernatural. I mean, I love him to pieces too, but it's the one thing that bugs me. Granted, there are a lot worse characters when it comes to this, but he does objectify women a lot, and can behave like a general douchebag towards women. (Of course, there are times when he genuinely does not, but a lot of the time, especially in the first couple of seasons, he does.) I always enjoyed reading fic where he is a girl (if it's done well, natch), for this very reason.

Another thing, along the lines of your penultimate paragraph, I can just imagine some of the comments you could get (hopefully not too many, and hopefully not here) from some people about how it's just fantasy, they aren't real, this kind of stuff does not matter in television/fandom/whatever, but that's just not true. It matters because how you see things in fiction mirrors and can even influence how you see things IRL. We do not turn ourselves off when we watch a show.

TL;DR, IAWTP. :)

ETA: I've had to edit every single comment I have made today. LJ + hangovers = srs bsns.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I can just imagine some of the comments you could get (hopefully not too many, and hopefully not here) from some people about how it's just fantasy, they aren't real, this kind of stuff does not matter in television/fandom/whatever, but that's just not true. It matters because how you see things in fiction mirrors and can even influence how you see things IRL. We do not turn ourselves off when we watch a show.

Very much this. I've often seen people excuse their character bashing with the, "she's just fictional", "it's just a TV show", etc.

We so often use these shows to relate to one another, to communicate, to share experiences. Hate and misogyny is going to get passed along.

[mysticalchild_isis]

Thank you kindly :D

[liebesdammerung.livejournal.com]

This is fascinating to me how people view and relate to characters. I might do a post on this, how I perceive that a mark of good acting/writing/characterization is how they can get their audience to look at the characters as characters and not as representations of their gender/race/sexuality/disability/class/what have you, which is something that I feel too often happens (and I cannot claim to be completely innocent either).

[mysticalchild_isis]

That would be a fascinating post. One need only trawl through TVTropes to see how often characters fit into standard, boxed-in roles.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

What you said! This subject is one of my fandom pet peeves, so it can get me going [g] Back when Torchwood started, I said that if Ianto had been a woman, she'd have been vilified. Nothing's happened to change that opinion.

Thanks for a great post.

[mysticalchild_isis]

If Gwen and Ianto's genders were switched, I can only imagine how different the TW fandom would look.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Oooh yeah!

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

American culture (and I think in some ways American feminists especially) often holds women to much higher standards than it does men. It is assumed that men are all dumb, stupid, crass, selfish, sexist, etc. Thus, any evidence that a man does have some redeeming qualities about him is something to celebrate.

On the other hand, we expect all women to be close to perfect... beautiful thin toned bodies, witty, able to be devoted mothers and wives, clean the house, and hold meaningful careers. Any deviation from perfection elicits scorn.

It is certainly unfair that we hold women to such unreasonably high standards. But I think it's also wrong that we generally think so little of men.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Oh, here via metafandom, BTW

[iamashamed.livejournal.com]

But a lot of people wouln't dislike Ryan, as much as Rose, that's the problem. When it's a guy, some people find it way easier to sympatheize, than if it's a woman. This article is not directed at people who just dislike Rose and Gwen, but at the fact that many(not all) people wouln't if they were male.

And Mickey wasn't a saint either btw, even when Rose did treat him badly; he was pretty clingy himself.

[contrarywise]

Bwahaha! This is why theory makes me LOL so much.

[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

Only two of those examples are things Ryan did, though, and only three of them are even from the show. (Also, what episode was "you're so gay" in? I have absolutely no recollection of that.)

As for the first point, men treat people horribly all the time on tv. If, say, Mickey was a girl, there would probably be a sect of fans who bashed on Micha(ela) for being clingy and insecure and jealous.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

This has been one of my biggest fandom pet peeves ever, and kudos to you to for making a great post about it! I hate it especially much when the fandom darling is the male villain; there's something really depressing about the fandom slapping down the heroine for not being perfect (especially if "not perfect" translates to "not easily likable") while happily hand-waving all the crappy things that the villain ever did away.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

Also, here via metafandom!

[mysticalchild_isis]

One need only look at most beer commercials to see that this is true. I think there's more going on there, though. Simply by being a man, a male character already has a higher value than a female character.

Someone upthread pointed out that a lot of straight women, while watching TV, tend to desire the male figures and project themselves into the female. When this happens, we tend to excuse the object of our desires his foibles, but simultaneously castigate the character we project ourselves into for not living up to our ideals.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I think it's a truly disturbing trend- we can forgive a man for rape, murder, abuse, etc... but if a woman dares to "mistreat" her man for even a second, she's an evil, unforgivable bitch.

[lothy.livejournal.com]

Here from a newsletter (probably metafandom), hope you don't mind me commenting?

I have such mixed feelings about NCIS sometimes, because there are several female characters I love, but on the other hand, women are constantly being fridged or abused, and the men are not held up to standards of equality. NCIS: LA, for all its silliness, has actually been better when it comes to women (so far, at least).

I agree with you on all of these points.

NCIS has had definite problems with its women, as awesome as they are. I adored Kate, but I found myself liking her more for the theory of who she is than how she was actually portrayed on screen. If she'd been a male former Secret Service agent (protecting the President, no less) would they have had her as naive as she is at times in the series, so ruled by her feelings that she sometimes doesn't remain professional, etc?

NCIS LA has so far been much, much better in this regard.

[mysticalchild_isis]

It can be so disappointing, as they'll tease us by creating female characters we like... but then kill them off, or break them, or abuse them, or screw up the characterization with bad writing.

[lothy.livejournal.com]

I can think of a few female TV characters who are basically jerks but still loved by the audience... Mary from In Plain Sight is loveable for her flaws for example. However, "loved by the audience" and "popular fandom figure" are two very different things and I'm having trouble thinking of examples of the latter.

[mysticalchild_isis]

Indeed. The female characters of this type tend to be very polarizing, in ways the male characters (almost) never are.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I saw this recced, and yes, I think you are right, but equally I think it applies to all aspects of life. Look at the hate directed toward Hilary Clinton for behaviours that in a man are viewed as admirable. Female directors are overlooked and criticised terribly, especially when they are a bit perfectionist, yet the bullying types, like Oliver Stone, are admired and get the nominations (not that he isn't a good director, I just plucked him as an example, there are lots of them! )

It's women who collude against themselves as well, we expect women are expected to behave in certain ways, and we let men get away with everything. We also judge women's looks all the time, in a way that men never get judged. The Doctor is obnoxious and rude, and rather horrid to those around him, but it's Rose who gets the crap.

[blktauna.insanejournal.com (from livejournal.com)]

Well,

DiNozzo is the reason I stopped watching NCIS. I loathe him and want him to die in a fire. Not Even my combined love for Abby, Ducky & Probie (which is vast) can make me watch the show any more. Every time I look at hiim I get violent.

Rose...
I loathe Rose as well and don't watch any episode she's in.

Both of them are highly unpleasant people who I'd give a good smack to if I could.

So to your point, no not everyone puts up with people like that, male or female.

[eve_n_furter]

Please keep in mind that I'm oversimplifying here: If you are a het female and get into a fandom because you are a fascinated with a male character, then the female characters will become your rivals. It's a basic natural instinct. (Yes, there's more to it. Oversimplifying, remember?)

[mysticalchild_isis]

Oh, I definitely agree. I was just concentrating on the fandom aspect, because fandom is where I come to escape. It's really upsetting that there's so much misogyny here, especially because it's such a heavily female space.