Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect

[mysticalchild_isis]

Further Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny

You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.

What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.

Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.

Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?

There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.

But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?

Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?

Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?

But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.

Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?

You're very welcome to share this/link to it.

Comments

[prlrocks.livejournal.com]

My thoughts? Damn straight! Well, I can't comment on the first character you dealt with, but the Rose hate annoys me so much. I'm just not seeing what all those who despise her are. Mary Sue? Hardly. And yes, she's flawed and doesn't always make the right choices, but I think that makes her and her story so much more interesting.

I admit I rarely like 'perfect' characters. They feel unreal and annoy me.

[mysticalchild_isis]

Yeah, as someone else commented to my post yesterday, you really can't have it both ways- Rose can't be a Mary Sue and simultaneously, a horrible, flawed human being... but hate isn't particularly logical.

I think the flaws are often what make us love a character... but there's a serious double standard when it comes to men's flaws and women's flaws.

[epiphany-gun.livejournal.com]

I love you. But I'd love you more if you were a man.

One of the things that bothers me most about this is that it's mostly women girls who do this. It makes you want to grab them by the shoulders and shake, yelling things like "The Doctor will not leave Rose for you if you badmouth her hard enough!"

And then, because someone female wrote it, it's magically not sexist or offensive at all.

It drove me nuts in the NCIS fandom how Tony could bully McGee and everything was sunshine and puppies but if Kate teased him a bit she was a cold-hearted bitch. (Especially since I kinda shipped Kate/McGee >_>)

[mysticalchild_isis]

One of the things that bothers me most about this is that it's mostly women girls who do this.

::nods:: Indeed. One of the things that truly bothers me the most about misogyny in fandom is the fact that so much of fandom is a female space, and so often the people spewing the most woman hate are the women.

I think it's part of the vicious cycle that keeps sexism alive- we're socialized to think of men as wonderful, and to simultaneously criticize and attack the women. It's like a panopticon of misogyny.

[hazelwho.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything about the NCIS character, but I read "Greg House" for "Tony DiNozzo" and all your points still worked beautifully. I also agree about Rose. One of the things I've enjoyed about NuWho is that all of the companions have strengths and weaknesses that are individual to them. None of them are scream queens or Mary Sues.

I also think epiphany_gun is right about much of the bashing coming from girls in our fandom. Maybe they're just young and don't really understand, or maybe they're trying to 'fit in with the guys', or maybe it's some misguided interpretation of third wave feminism - who knows. I would support you 100% if you unlocked this and sent it out, and I think you have a chance at opening these girls' eyes to what they're doing. ...Or else you'll get in a major flame war with a bunch of 16 year olds who won't understand what you're trying to tell them about propagating misogyny for another 10 years.

[mysticalchild_isis]

::nods:: Yeah, House is a perfect example of this sort of thing. How many people hate on him, versus how many people hate on Cuddy, Thirteen, Stacy, and Cameron? But if he was Gina instead of Greg...

ETA- I think a lot of the girls don't have the self-awareness, the education, or the mentoring to realize just what it is they're doing. They're the ones I really wrote this for, but they're probably not going to see it or think about it, in the end.

[cantusnoctum.livejournal.com]

THUMBS UP IN APPROVAL!

Btw, you should check out the book I'm reading The Supergirls. It brings up some of those points, although only relating to comic books. :)

[mysticalchild_isis]

Ohh, sounds good. ::adds to to-read list:: One of the things that really drives me nuts is how woman hating some of the most famous comic writers are- like Alan Moore and Frank Miller.

[epiphany-gun.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I think, using only slightly longer words.

[mysticalchild_isis]

::gigglesnorts::

My time spent in post-modernist English classes, let me show you it.

[cantusnoctum.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know. :/ The book doesn't go into too much detail about woman-hating because alot of it is about the history, but it does talk about how woman superheroes were/are portrayed and things of that sort. It's pretty interesting!

[epiphany-gun.livejournal.com]

I honestly think - and this could be me talking out of me ass - that a lot of it stems from jealousy of all things. The female characters, if they're interesting at all, are flawed in some way (because that's the way real people are) and young girls in particular have a tendancy to put a person on a pedestal when they have a crush. In their minds the flawed character is not good enough, or "doesn't really understand" or is too different from them (them being the squealing mass of pubescent devotees) for their OMG ONE TRUE LOVE and they just get catty.

Hopefully most of them grow out of it but in the meanwhile I really wish they'd just shut up about it.

Again, I could be wrong.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I think you hit it right on the money. I always get disgusted when I see comments along the lines of "she doesn't deserve him" or "she's not good enough for him". I always read that as "only I am (or someone I choose is) good enough for this wonderful male character".

[hazelwho.livejournal.com]

You know, it really could be a jealousy thing. My friend teaches Catholic High School girls and I met some of them over spring break. They were bashing a girl on Vampire Diaries and bemoaning the fact that she wasn't more "Bella". It would make sense that Bella is an acceptable/desirable character to them because she DOES put Edward on a pedestal, constantly thinks she's unworthy of him, and strives to deeply understands her one true love. They idealize her instead of label her a Mary Sue even though she has purple eyes telepathy because she's acting in a way that conforms to their expectations.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I haven't been able to bring myself to read Twilight, but from what I understand, Bella is also something of a non-character- she's king of a blank slate, so teen girls can project themselves onto her.

[hazelwho.livejournal.com]

I've read all the Twilight books - my friend had to because all her girls were talking about it, and she made me read it so she could rage about them to someone. The best thing I can say about them is that reading the first book really reminded me of what it was like to be stupid-in-love at 16. But, yes, as everyone says, he's really really pretty and she smells really really good so it must be True Love. She is obsessed with not looking older than him (he looks 17, she looks 18 -OMG, THE HORROR) and we're supposed to be happy that she gets pregnant when she loses her virginity on her wedding night. The culmination of her arc is that, after years of trying, she finally succeeds in becoming just like him. Bella is definitely a non-character to some extent - she has no discernible personality and her only fault is her endearing clumsiness. But really, isn't defining herself by how well she loves her man and valuing herself based on how much he loves her the very bestest virtues she could ever have?

[mysticalchild_isis]

::sings:: STAND BY YOUR MAN::

[epiphany-gun.livejournal.com]

Oh, you really, REALLY should. I bought them all hardcover and then kept a red pen with me at all times while reading them to edit and make notes. Twilight is so much better now. ::evil grin::

And if you think they start out bad just wait, by the fourth book you will be crying for your mother.

[epiphany-gun.livejournal.com]

All I can think about is THIS.

[alexiscartwheel.livejournal.com]

Great posts! The prevalence of women hating on women in fandom is really saddening. I began to notice it a lot when I was active in Harry Potter fandom. The sheer amount of vitriol directed at Ginny Weasley was astounding. How dare she have the nerve to date more than one boy before Harry? The companion bashing in Doctor Who fandom is equally ridiculous.

I understand having an appreciation for complex and problematic characters, but I think sometimes fans do start to too easily write off the flaws of male character. Sometimes there a pretty big difference between a good character and a good person. Like DiNozzo--a lot of the time he's just not a very nice guy. Not surprising I guess, since it's military related, but NCIS in general seems to have frequent moments of the male-oriented adapt to the hostile work environment or else vibe.

[alexiscartwheel.livejournal.com]

It makes you want to grab them by the shoulders and shake, yelling things like "The Doctor will not leave Rose for you if you badmouth her hard enough!"

This is so true. Whether they acknowledge it or not, many fans do want the character they identify with the be with the hero, and anyone who gets in the way of that is an evil harridan.

[mysticalchild_isis]

Well, I haven't read the original, but I have read this:

http://www.cracked.com/article_16878_if-twilight-was-10-times-shorter-100-times-more-honest.html

[mysticalchild_isis]

I don't get why female characters are held to the sort of ridiculous standards that no one in real life lives up to... just in order to be "good enough" for the male characters. Meanwhile, the men can be pretty freaking awful, and forgiven for it all.

Not surprising I guess, since it's military related, but NCIS in general seems to have frequent moments of the male-oriented adapt to the hostile work environment or else vibe.

::nods:: I have such mixed feelings about NCIS sometimes, because there are several female characters I love, but on the other hand, women are constantly being fridged or abused, and the men are not held up to standards of equality. NCIS: LA, for all its silliness, has actually been better when it comes to women (so far, at least).

[mysticalchild_isis]

So much this.

[madeelly.livejournal.com]

I love Tony, but he is a misogynist. Not disgustingly so, but it is a little annoying. What annoys me the most though is the fact that everyone hates Kate (who is my favorite) for calling Tony out on how much of a misogynist jerk he is (particularly in S1 and S2). Tony's gotten better, but still...

And I know this isn't the point at all, but mmmmmm Bradley James as the Doctor's companion. Want plz. But I guess that just proves what you were saying, even though I love Rose. xD

Female characters FTW! They get too much hate in fandom.