Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect

[mysticalchild_isis]

Further Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny

You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.

What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.

Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.

Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?

There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.

But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?

Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?

Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?

But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.

Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?

You're very welcome to share this/link to it.

Comments

[troubleinchina.livejournal.com]

I'm really bothered by the questions you ask here. When you ask "Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?", I don't know how to answer it. It becomes proving something unprovable, since there isn't a "Ryan" in New!Who to compare to. [1]

Plus, I keep thinking about all the other things that would change drastically if Ryan's gender is the only thing that changed about his storyline. Ryan would become an openly gay character on the show - a show that's shown to mainstream audiences as a kids' show. He wouldn't be tragically dead or tragically evil at the end of his story arc. The Tenth Doctor would have a love interest who was male - and it would be explicit rather than the implicit bits of Jaime/Doctor. (I haven't seen previous Who.) You'd have a gay man in an inter-racial relationship from the beginning - which means Mickey would be a gay black man, something I don't see a lot of (actually, I can't think of any) in mainstream television. You'd have a canonically bi-romatic Doctor, because the Doctor's love for Ryan would be part of the same season that included his romance with Madame du Pompadour, and later seasons would show his implied romance with River Song.

There are huge impacts on the story if Rose is Ryan and nothing else changes, and while they are tied into gender, they are also tied into sexuality and what stories people are allowed to tell on "children's" television.

I think it's more interesting to discuss how people have reacted to characters within a show that share many of the same traits. Why is Gwen "the whore of Cardiff" on a show that has Jack Harkness as the lead? Why is Jack's unrequited longing for the Doctor okay, but Martha's unrequited longing for the Doctor makes her weak & wishy-washy? (And are those two things again tied into sexuality as well as race?)

[1] I actually have little opinion on Rose as a Companion, although I found the "Doctor pines after her for a season and a half afterward" a bit tiring.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I definitely over-simplified things by switching Rose to Ryan without considering the huge impact it would have. There's a huge amount of meta that could come from that- as you say sexuality and what stories people are allowed to tell on "children's" television. It's possible (even likely) that Mickey might have been Michelle, which would have also vastly shifted the landscape of the fandom.

[odannygirl7.livejournal.com]

*here from metafandom*
I was trying to figure out how to say something like what you said but in a way that didn't seem derailing off into sexuality stuff. lol. But I think the two issues are tied together. Are fans more willing to forgive Jack's problimatic-ness because of him being non-heterosexual? Is there more wiggle room because non-heterosexuality is a newer thing to be seeing? (like with Martha, it's cliche to see a girl pine over a boy, but a boy pining over a boy? It's new and maybe it has it's problems, but if we complain they might not let us have any more?) IDK.
And can this then be applied to other shows that have a strong slash fanbase? (I'm assuming that a lot of female character bashing comes from the non-het side of things. I don't go over to the het side too often, so... *shrug*)

Of course this is only one facet of the issue, but it's an interesting one.

[troubleinchina.livejournal.com]

[I apologize if this posts twice.]

I think it's a hugely complicated issue, discussing how we'd view different characters if their genders were different. I mean, there was a discussion elsewhere about Castle and the role of hand-holding the genius that Beckett ends up stuffed in, and I have to admit - I've always wondered how people would react to that show if everything else was the same but Castle was female and Beckett was male. I think it would totally change everything about how the show is perceived, even if the only dialog ever changed were gender pronouns.

I think it's really important to talk about how people judge (straight) female characters, and the criteria that seems to be expected of them, because it reflects back on us in "real" life - be sexual, but not too sexual, take care of your man, but don't be "clingy", be open to sexual advances, but not too open. And we don't really have this same set of rules for male characters or, in general, heterosexual men.

I just find, for me, that "how would you feel if X character was a different gender" just doesn't really talk about the issue that it's meant to. The real issue is "Why is the bar so high for female characters?" And I think the answer is in my second paragraph there: because the bar is so high for women in general.

I don't know what to do about it. I have no answers. I wish I did - I would sell them for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS and then start making awesome television about Space Pirates.

[mysticalchild_isis]

"how would you feel if X character was a different gender" just doesn't really talk about the issue that it's meant to.

::nods::

You're very right- I oversimplified things by a lot and didn't consider anything outside of gender. I just wanted a quick way to make people look at who they were bashing, and think about what might be behind it.

The real issue is "Why is the bar so high for female characters?" And I think the answer is in my second paragraph there: because the bar is so high for women in general.

I think this is definitely a conversation that needs to be held. I'd love to see some meta on it.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I agree about the oversimplification. I don't think Rose becoming Ryan would automatically make her more tolerable to some people because double standards don't just exist for women and a man who became as clingy and 'emotionally needy' as Rose became towards the Doctor, which seems to be the biggest mark against her in fandom, would probably been seen as even more intolerable. Just look at people's attitudes towards Mickey during the first season of Who or Ianto being labelled a 'woobie' for crying during an emotional charged situation,a label that would almost never be applied to a woman in similar circumstance.

The disparity in people's attitude to Martha's crush and Jack's crush on the Doctor may be gender related, but it may also be a reaction to the fact that Martha and her storyline is far more explicitly defined by her crush than Jack ever is. To put it simply the show made a bigger deal of Martha's crush than Jack's and so that may have made it harder for people to ignore which was then compounded by the Doctor making it clear that he's just not in to her and making constant unfavourable comparisons to Rose.

And while I agree that misogyny and double standards plays a roll,well, not just fandom, but in the shows themselves, I think the writing often plays a big role in people's attitude to certain characters. Not just poor writing, but the intent behind writing characters in certain ways, the writers seeming lack of objectivity and bias when it comes to writing for certain characters which also tends to lead to viscerally negative reactions too.

[mysticalchild_isis]

I think the writing often plays a big role in people's attitude to certain characters. Not just poor writing, but the intent behind writing characters in certain ways

::nods:: I absolutely agree. There's nothing more upsetting than a great character (of either gender) ruined by bad or malicious writing.

But I'm bothered by the way that bad writing for male characters is far more likely to get handwaved or written off that that of female characters.

(Of course, a lot of the writers/producers/et al are male, and Hollywood still seems to be stuck on a lot of outdated gender typing, and this is a huge part of the problem...)