Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect
Mar. 25th, 2010 03:24 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mysticalchild_isisFurther Thoughts On Fandom Misogyny
You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.
What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.
Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.
Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?
There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.
But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?
Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?
Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?
But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.
Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.
Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?
You're very welcome to share this/link to it.
You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.
What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.
Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.
Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?
There are some people who can truthfully say they'd love Tonia just as much as Tony, because it really is just about what they like about the characterization, regardless of gender. Tonia has probably also gained some brand new fans, who like her because she turns the dominant paradigm on its head- they'd enjoy watching a woman constantly objectifying men, and running roughshod over everyone.
But be honest: how many people would call Tonia a slut, a bitch, a whore, or a harpy? How dare that uppity woman torment poor little Timmy! Who does she think she is?
Let's try an opposite sort of example, and take Rose Tyler from Doctor Who. Rose consistently gets accused of being a Mary Sue, a selfish brat, a chav, and all sorts of other similarly offensive things. Imagine, however (honestly and deeply), if Rose was instead Ryan, played by someone like Bradley James. Let's say we now have a young man who doesn't have much in the way of education, but who pick things up pretty quickly, someone who's compassionate and friendly, and who loves the Doctor deeply. Ryan is suddenly reminding me a lot of a modern version of Jamie McCrimmon. How many people hate on Jamie, or call him a Gary Stu, or accuse him of being selfish for loving the Doctor? Just how many of the people who despise Rose would hate Ryan just as much?
Try taking any female character you dislike, and transforming them into a man... how does this change how you look at them? There are still going to be plenty of characters you dislike, regardless of gender, because they're still a cat hater, or a Yankees fan, or they look just like that math teacher who used to call you stupid. But how much time would you spend bashing them? Do you think there would be whole communities devoted to hating them? Would they be constantly vilified in fanfic?
But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.
Yes, I'm oversimplifying things, being judgmental, and the people who see this are almost certainly the last people on earth who need to read it, but I had to throw it out there.
Thoughts, critiques, attacks, opinions?
You're very welcome to share this/link to it.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-03-29 01:57 pm (UTC)When are the male characters ever written up as being blinded by love? And fueling the angst on the show? I think if you had had a male character portrayed as wanting to deal with the romantic situation (and getting distressed about it), he'd be seen as a whiny character (a lot of people disliked the Doctor for pining over Rose for so long). On women it works a lot better than it does on men, even if it's a hit/miss for a lot of people.
For me I have a harder time liking female characters, because they will often be written as the lesser species that has this Teen Twilight mindset come out and play whenever the guy needs to come out on top. Even though I'm not equally as apt to scrutiny when it comes to men (because the world has grown up finding a lot of bad qualities/actions excusable when it comes to them. I've even tested this theory out on a lot of fandom folk to see if they would like me any less if I behaved as a rampant jerk-face—which admittedly, in itself, is a jerk thing to do—and I've had people like me better for those things whereas they would complain about the same attributes in their female friends), but I will be turned off by the negative character traits if they appear. Albeit nobody can be composed of just good traits, but to glorify a person's negative side seems to be an utterly backwards mindset. I don't want to find myself disappointed in fandom, but a lot of people need to stop being stuck in the 50's.
The one thing I dislike (in either gender) is when a character is written to be the amazingly Bad Ass of Bad Assery. It just reads/plays off as Mary Sue to me. Only a few people can portray this role, and that's always because they tend to fail at their attempts of being Bad Ass or that it backfires. (Which then isn't a character who is Bad Ass.)
Who I like and who I dislike is based on character (and a shallow level of me thinking the character is hot, but that in turn comes from character personality. Sue me, I'm gay. I'm allowed to be biased to the male persuasion!). A character grows with you, in good and bad. If I dislike a character I won't stop watching the series and I won't come at fen comms with a mallet to bash my hate away. If my best friend started dating a person I could not stand, I wouldn't stop being friends because of their dating choice. Seems rather petty. Hate for a person (fictional or real) can't overshadow the love for someone. Cue a cheesy 'Love conquers all' song.
For example, Rose was my favourite companion, but I couldn't stand any of the others, male or female. On Billie Piper's new series, I love Belle/Hannah and Bambi but I can't stand the male main/supporting characters (the clientele excluded) because they're just being a bunch of twats.
But at the end of the day, the "worst" character might become my favourite simply because of their bad behaviour. See my icon for reference (Nathan from Misfits).
I hope this comment made sense with all the abuse of the parenthetical side-notes. That and I just had to comment on this entry despite my brain still trying to boot up fully from sleep. ;)
no subject
Date: 2010-03-29 04:09 pm (UTC)This is definitely a huge problem- poor writing/characterization of female character... but it bothers me that the same bad writing applied to male characters is much more easily ignored or forgiven.
Albeit nobody can be composed of just good traits, but to glorify a person's negative side seems to be an utterly backwards mindset. I don't want to find myself disappointed in fandom, but a lot of people need to stop being stuck in the 50's.
This is definitely one of the things that confuses me. Especially the way the "bad" guy often is the fandom darling, which, fine- villains can be interesting- but said character usually has reams and reams of fanfic in which he gets rehabilitated... often at the cost of women. I suppose redemption is a fascinating trope, but why does so often involve misogny?